An experiment ...

topic posted Wed, November 19, 2003 - 8:00 AM by  phil
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I'm wondering how a bunch of people who don't really know each other, are self-selecting, and with an indeterminate set of skills, can build trust and work together on a commercial project.

One thing strikes me as a possible low-commitment experiment : group blogging for dollars.

Here's how it would work :

* Start a group blog with a small number of contibutors.

* Put a Google Ad-words bar down the side.

* All members contribute links and stories

* Collect money for ads, and distribute it among members

Important points :

- No one is going to get rich. If it works out, there'll be a couple of dollars a month, max, for the contributors. If it doesn't, there'll be nothing.

- Your membership and right to participate depend on a minimum contribution. (Maybe 1 story + 3 quick links per week. If you don't meet this minimum you forfit your share of the money. Harsh, but easier than some kind of performance related scheme)

- There has to be a benign dictator. Someone who "owns" the blog and Ad-account, who takes responsibility for counting the contributions, collecting the money and forwarding it to the others. (Probably via PayPal)

- Some of the money can be donated to good causes, as the GC "pitch" suggests. But the precise constitutional details can be decided by the group members.

- Why should we be willing to trust this dictator? At first, we're just taking a bet. But the commitment and money will be so small that we can afford to take the risk - ie. contributing 4-5 stories and 12-15 links per month isn't a huge commitment (especially for regular Tribe posters :-), and the danger of losing up to 20 dollars probably isn't too offputting.

- Over a period of time, the group will probably shake itself out into those most commited to the theme and style of the blog, and the community. From there on in, they can probably plan other group projects. For example, maybe co-writing an eBook for sale through Amazon, co-writing software etc.

- Probably the ideal size for the group is between 5 and 10 contributors. (Above that, accounting gets more complex, and the dividend gets very small). If there are more people interested, they can divide among several blogs.

- These are probably not going to be personal and wide-ranging blogs. They should be focussed on a tighter, more ad friendly theme. So this is real "work".

OK, what do people think of this idea? Is anyone up for trying it? Anyone want to volunteer to be the benign dictator? Any good ideas for blog themes? (I'm a bit reluctant for Glocal Conversation or "new ways of doing business" itself to be the theme because these are already widely discussed at the moment, and not, I think, particularly ad-friendly.)


posted by:
phil
Brazil
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  • Re: An experiment ...

    Wed, November 19, 2003 - 8:11 AM
    I think its definitely worth a try.

    I personally like the idea of a very specific theme
    of such a blog, is there such a theme ?
    Brainstorming here ?

    Could it be the co-bloggers each giving their own
    personal perspective on one theme ?
    • Re: An experiment ...

      Wed, November 19, 2003 - 9:21 AM
      I think inevitably you'll get the different opinions from the different bloggers. That's part of the attraction. Although I think there has to be a consistency too.

      I think it's a theme that must have a "news" element. Something to keep the readers coming back and gives the writers new things to say on a continual basis.


      • Re: An experiment ...

        Thu, November 20, 2003 - 1:25 PM
        Great idea Phil.

        Most of my writing lately has been about things not very news or adworthy. I'd like to do more stuff based on Robert Putnam's(flimsy) definition of social capital, attempts to make it a worthwhile concept through other means of formulating it, and (of course) the transfer of these concepts to online social networks. It would be neat to discuss, for example, "how a bunch of people who don't really know each other, are self-selecting, and with an indeterminate set of skills, can build trust and work together on a commercial project" via the web and really try to hammer out all of the conceptual issues involved.

        Just an idea. I hesitated to post it because its possible that the market for this sort of writing is already super-saturated. But no one else was talking...
        • Re: An experiment ...

          Thu, November 20, 2003 - 10:59 PM
          I like it Robert,
          and I dont think its saturated at all,
          quite the reverse,
          and, I also think this ( great quote ! )
          really is newsworthy,
          and would also serve two purposes,
          keeping our writing focused,
          and carving out a niche
          in the blogosphere.
          • Re: An experiment ...

            Fri, November 21, 2003 - 6:08 AM
            OK, maybe there's something here. But we need an *angle*. I'm afraid of the 800 pound gorillas :

            * www.corante.com/many/

            * www.socialtext.com/weblog/

            * socialsoftware.weblogsinc.com

            * terranova.blogs.com

            And Ross, Seb, the Cluetrain guys etc.

            What would we do that's different?

            I'm also worried that many people have an intuition about the new possibilities that networking opens up. And many people hope it will reform the world and make work a nicer place. But it's VERY HARD. People have been talking for a long time, and I don't know how much has really been achieved.

            One of the reasons I collate ideas I hear about on this page :

            www.nooranch.com/synaesmed...i/wiki.cgi

            is to try to get people to see that bigger picture. And to see if we can go beyond the talking. And if those different ideas and groups can work together.

            So could a GC themed group-blog have a definite "unique selling point"? I'm interested in the social capital idea, but I don't know much about it. Is anyone here actually doing experiments with this kind of stuff? And seeinig results?

            A couple of other thoughts ... maybe a strength of GC is that there are people from a lot of different countries here. Could reporting on social software away from the US/UK be an angle? (Compare www.blogalization.info/reorganization/)

            Maybe the emphasis is less on business but "third sector" stuff. If so, are we thinking more about something like : www.worldchanging.com/ ?

            phil

            • Re: An experiment ...

              Fri, November 21, 2003 - 7:53 AM
              There is a very productive angle here Phil,
              lets assume the blog will feature ads from
              companies, organizations and networks that
              uderstands the win/win/win of the GC concept,
              then we can turn the blog into an ongoing
              conversation with the Ad-companies,
              asking them stuff, offering a chance for their
              clients to voice their concerns,
              providing a vibrant ecology of concerned, highly
              informed citizens.
              As if markets are conversations.
              ( enabling *that* is a good selling point, but its IMO,
              only the first step towards our unique selling point, which I would guess, is the collective intelligence of our combined voices, opinions and perspectives )
              As if our blog is a conversation enabler.

              I also like the notion of having a core group of co-bloggers,
              from all over the globe.

              So. Its not blogspeak.
              Its definitely not corp-speak.
              And, its not Brand-speak either.

              Its...


              • Re: An experiment ...

                Sun, November 23, 2003 - 8:50 PM
                "the first step towards our unique selling point, which I would guess, is the collective intelligence of our combined voices, opinions and perspectives "

                I'm a bit suspicious of this. There doesn't seem to be a USP there.

                * "a bunch of guys on the internet who talk about cool new networking ways of organizing work and life." fails on the uniqueness criterion.

                Meanwhile

                * "John, Phil, Zbigniew etc. talking about cool new networking ways of organizing work and life" fails on the selling criterion. Unless we're *celebrities* who already command a great deal of attention, that isn't going to be what anyone's particularly looking for.

                The USP has got to be something like "a bunch of guys on the internet who talk about cool new networking ways of organizing work and life *in terms of social capital*" or "the guys who answer your Perl problems in rhyme".

                Let's start brainstorming interests and skills :

                Who here is a programmer, and what languages do you like? (Me : Python, Perl, Smalltalk, Visual Basic)

                Who here is knows anything about the non English speaking world?

                Who here has a special interest in medicine? Law? Astro-physics? Hotel management?

                Who here has a talking pet?
            • Re: An experiment ...

              Fri, November 21, 2003 - 8:55 AM
              Robert Putnam on social capital- "The central premise of social capital is that social networks have value. Social capital refers to the collective value of all "social networks" [who people know] and the inclinations that arise from these networks to do things for each other ["norms of reciprocity"]."
              from: www.bowlingalone.com/socialcapital.php3

              The best place I know of for looking into social capital is: dep.eco.uniroma1.it/~soccap/...index.htm

              I think what *could* set us apart from most of these sites is an acknowledgement that a business is really just a subclass of social networks, or an instantiation of accumulated social capital. I'm more interested in the properties of groups and of social networks themselves, and trying to get a handle on all the research being done about them these days. The rush to cover the hot new trends in social software is full of 800 pound gorillas. My idea was to use current events as studies to help illuminate things that we're learning about social networks, rather than racing to be the first to have something smart to say about every new development in the Friendster wars. The "angle" might be that we're not PHD's in social network analysis and neither is most of the potential readership, but more precise understandings of these concepts could help us all in formulating our ideas, opinions, and goals as they relate to online networking. I don't know if that's adworthy, or even workable without a lot of headaches but I'd be willing to give it or something like it a shot.

              "Third sector" stuff is also an interest of mine - especially combined with the international angle that Phil mentions. Something in this direction might keep us farther away from the gorillas. It also might be a good opportunity to pull people who are not otherwise interested in blogging into the fray. I don't know of any sites other than worldchanging.com even talking about this stuff in a blog format.
              • Re: An experiment ...

                Fri, November 21, 2003 - 10:10 AM
                To expand a little on the social capital idea. These are some of the questions I've been asking myself lately on this topic:

                What is social capital? Why are there a hundred and one definitions and proposed ways of measuring it?
                Is it an emergent property of social networks? What would that tell us if it was? What are the properties of emergence?
                Is social capital a fiction? An arbitrary index of lower-order phenomena like "quality of life" or the UN Human Development Index? How is built, destroyed? Are there different kinds of social capital? If so, what is the process of differentiation?

                What are the properties of social networks? What are the properties of groups? How are they different? Why is the distinction important? What generalizations are made about group and network dynamics? What are the different kinds of networks and what are variables within in them that are making them different?

                Who is doing new research on this stuff and what are they coming up with? What happens to all of this in an online context? Can a coherent theory of online social capital be created? Would it be useful? Do the answers to these questions tell us anyting intersting/non-obvious about what we see happening today?

                I had been thinking about making a WIKI on these ideas, but if its interesting to you guys, maybe it could be useful to our purposes.
                • Re: An experiment ...

                  Fri, November 21, 2003 - 10:19 AM
                  Good stuff, Robert.

                  These are some of the questions that could form one of the
                  threads of inquiry in this proposed blog.
  • Re: An experiment ...

    Sun, November 23, 2003 - 6:02 AM
    How about a bit departing from the money economy? We could form a social network that could be used to solve many diverse problems. Each time the money would be negotiated separately, but we would use a common brand - that is a logo, a web page etc. The brand would be a guarantee of good quality of service, and accumulator of the reputation of our social network.

    I am not very much inclined to the blog idea - I am not sure I can be good in the popularity contest. I'd rather do something that lends to a bit more objective value judgement. Of course as a programmer I would choose programming.
    • Re: An experiment ...

      Sun, November 23, 2003 - 6:13 AM
      But I think brand sharing is a big commitment to make. Basically you're putting your reputation on the line and saying : this person is sort of like me, and as good as me.

      One of the aims of my group-blog suggestion was to build something with people who are still really unknown quantities.
      • Re: An experiment ...

        Sun, November 23, 2003 - 6:36 AM
        The brand would be the substitution to company. It would not mean that I identify with the brand - it just would mean I work for this brand.
        • Re: An experiment ...

          Sun, November 23, 2003 - 8:04 AM
          Brand is a complex concept,

          With more of a collaborative effort, less hype,
          less reliance of namedropping, but rather going
          behind the scenes, and/or stepping back a notch,
          and see the emerging patterns, through delving into
          whats actually happening "out there" ie in grid computing
          alternative ways of organizing activity, new ways of
          aggregating people, local efforts,...

          Your unique stance, Zbigniew, IS the very characteristic that would value to such a brand/blog.
        • Re: An experiment ...

          Sun, November 23, 2003 - 4:50 PM
          But you say brand signals some kind of quality of service. For this to be true, for brand to work for you, then you've got to trust the other users of the brand to provide an equal service.


        • Re: An experiment ...

          Tue, December 9, 2003 - 4:11 PM
          COnsidering my abliet limited experience in programming code for software and the underlining open source reality that even if your using licensed software, most expierence comes from reviewing other's attempts at solutions, I would say Microsoft is a perfect example of what you are describing.
    • Re: An experiment ...

      Sun, November 23, 2003 - 4:57 PM
      I have two thoughts.

      1)

      Maybe something similar could work for hardcore coders. Some kind of place like PerlMonks or ExtremeVisualBasic, where you earn reputation points for solving other people's problems. In this case, your reputation points might be cashed in for a share of advertising. Or other services.

      I'm stressing the commercial aspect here because as I understand it, Glocal Conversation is somehow a commercial idea, not just about amateur projects and communities. I may, of course, be wrong about this.

      2)

      A blog is a very flexible format. There's no reason why a group of hardcore technical bloggers couldn't write something where most stories are code-examples of how particular problems are solved.
      • Re: An experiment ...

        Sun, November 23, 2003 - 10:20 PM
        Yep, agree, Phil could blog on his ongoing exploration re
        RDF.
        Zbigniew could blog about all the wrinkles and technical
        nuances of social routing.
        Robert could blog about better contexts and explanations
        on social capital.
        I could blog on pattern languages, and their practical uses.

        And, adding value to the mix, we could also compare notes
        in the blog, having an ongoing conversation between us,
        exploring interesting overlap between our individual threads.

        Re, commercial, we could see this blog as a GC marketing blog,
        but I guess we would have to reach some sort of consensus for
        that first.
        • Re: An experiment ...

          Sun, November 23, 2003 - 10:49 PM
          I was also thinking about the book idea that Phil proposed in his initial post. What if we started with the idea of writing a book via blog, posted a WIKI along with our own weekly columns, let visitors add to the book along with our own contributions, and made the whole site an experiment in distributed authorship? Our weekly blog could be anything from what John talks about above, to additions to the WIKI, to ruminations on the process. We'd sit down at the end and edit it together into bookform. This might add a unique dimension to the site that could set us apart from other blogs already talking about social software, et al. Is this being done elsewhere and/or something worth trying?
          • Re: An experiment ...

            Mon, November 24, 2003 - 11:37 PM
            It's somewhat been done before. Here's one that comes to mind:

            Readme Readme Readme
            www.medialounge.net/lounge/w...OCS/zkp5/

            Which is an collection of essays from list-serves and usenet postings. Not quite a cohesive "book" but very much a book of essays and available in print and online.

            There is also a long history of serial novel activity on the internet... dating back to the 80s.

            A summary of one:
            nethistory.dumbentia.com/gates.html

            But since everyone seems very "blog happy" maybe there is enough momentum for things like this to take off again, and a collaborative cohesive work would be neato. Not unlike what screen-writers do when working out the plot of the next episode.
        • Re: An experiment ...

          Tue, November 25, 2003 - 11:20 AM
          Well, can't say the idea of blogging about RDF fills me with great enthusiasm ;-) But I'm coming around to the idea that a blog with Glocal Conversation as the theme *might* be made to work.

          I think we'd still need to make sure there was a consistency in the main theme. Something like : exploring new ways of organizing work. That could include different types of business organization, discussion of the role played by the third sector, networked amateurs, social capital and reputation. (Including Zbigniew's social routing.) I'd like to talk a bit about alternative money and economics too (naturally), and pattern languages are of course an important tool.

          I still think we have to push the "news" dimension for it to work as an interesting blog. That means contributers regularly monitoring a bunch of other sources to get up-to-date information. And it couldn't just be the same style of writing as posts to this Tribe. I really want to get beyond what a lot of people do, which is throw up their initial, enthusiastic intuitions and then don't develop it further. Forcing ourselves to find out the latest things seems a good way to escape that.

          The other thing I think we might try is to get interviews with various people. I've seen these work well on programming oriented sites like www.artima.com/index.jsp and www.codegeneration.net/ . So maybe something similar could work for a GC blog.

          Other points.

          Zbigniew : On other more technical activities, like debugging teams. I guess what I feel about this is that, right now, I don't have a sense of how technical everyone is. In general it seems like a bigger commitment to an unknown quantity to try to build a group identity around our programming expertise. And I'm not one of those people who enjoys debugging much, so I'd need a real incentive to put much energy there.

          Robert : I agree that in many cases a wiki is better than a weblog for less structured note-making and conversation. From my perspective I already keep two wikis (www.nooranch.com/synaesmed...i/wiki.cgi and www.nooranch.com/synaesmed...imaes.cgi) and a personal blog (blahsploitation.blogspot.com/).

          I suppose what I'm looking for here, is something a bit different from that experience. Maybe with more structure and discipline :-)

          As to writing a book. I still think this is phase 2. It's another big commitment which we might want to make when we know each other better.

          So, on to a show of hands. If someone created a Glocal Conversation blog to talk about this kind of stuff. Who would be commited to contribute something like a minimum of 3 links and one short (3-5 paragraph story) per week, possibly for a small share of a tiny advertising revenue?

          Also, who would be prepared to be the benign dictator, administrator, banker of the system? (I have to rule myself out of this role, because I don't have a bank account here in Brazil, and getting sent cheques is a pain.) John seems the obvious candidate or are there problems for you too? Is someone in the states better?
      • Re: An experiment ...

        Mon, November 24, 2003 - 12:54 AM
        In fact I have to agree with you about the branding etc.

        As to the blogging - ok, I can try, I hope you as the experienced blogger will lead us in the process.

        My idea was to register at www.opensourcexperts.com/ as a group of experts. I hope the current situation is a bit different from the time when questionexchange went under. It is signifficant too that the company seems to be a German project.
  • Re: An experiment ...

    Thu, November 27, 2003 - 12:26 AM
    Recently I am thinking about setting up an aggregator for all the social software news. There are so many sites. But when the aggregator is ready I think it would be usefull for not only me. So how about setting up a public aggregator managed by our group? I think this would be something new on the arena.

    Our service would be the selecting, categorising, threading and, ofcourse, commenting the content available in the whole blogsphere.

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